Talk:Cecil Lee
Citation Just a question, Seth - I can almost ''understand you wanting citation for him being born in Great Britain. ''Almost. If it weren't for the fact that viritually all jobs any wizard could obtain in any field would recquire one or more O.W.L. and/or N.E.W.T in a specific subject, and that is something that you obtain at Hogwarts. However - why on Earth would I need citation for saying he was good at Care of Magical Creatures and DADA? Isn't that kind of obvious? He was a member of the Werewolf Capture Unit; his department dealt with magical creatures, so obviously, working in tha department recquired at least an O.W.L., if not a N.E.W.T. - and werewolves are, in a sense, a magical creature, but also a topic in DADA. And DADA is hence relevant when dealing with them in real life. Why would we need citation for the ridiculously self-evident? Maester Martin (talk) 22:38, October 18, 2018 (UTC) :I take it that there's no reference to support that piece of info that's currently being presented as fact, then. -- [[User:Seth Cooper| Seth Cooper ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 22:57, October 18, 2018 (UTC) : There is no "reference to support the info that's currently being presented as fact" on the pages of people like Fudge, Dawlish, Scrimgeour, Amos Diggory, Hestia Jones, Thicknesse, Dedalus Diggle, etc, etc, either, but here's the thing; Willy-nilly starting little conspiracy theories about how all of those guys might be born elsewhere and yet have attended Hogwarts, or went to school elsewhere and achieveing OWLS and NEWTS by other means prior to joining the Ministry/the Order, never happens. Wjy? Because it'd be dumb. ''How is Cecil Lee be any different in this respect than any other character ever presented without a wealth of details? Maester Martin (talk) 23:12, October 18, 2018 (UTC) ::If you pay attention, you'll no doubt notice none of the articles you cited says anything outright about any of these people attending Hogwarts or earning any O.W.L.s or N.E.W.T.s (bar Fudge, Dawlish, and Scrimgeour, which information is referenced). -- [[User:Seth Cooper| '''Seth Cooper' ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 23:54, October 18, 2018 (UTC) Which, since we have never been presented a single British witch or wizard in canon who hasn't attended Hogwarts, and we never'' will be until the day it is recquired by the plot specifically for that one character, is still beyond me. Maester Martin (talk) 00:16, October 19, 2018 (UTC) :::Your point being? -- [[User:Seth Cooper| '''Seth Cooper' ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 00:18, October 19, 2018 (UTC) Sibblings While it is likely that Barnaby's uncle was the brother of his father, do we know that for sure? Unless it is directly stated, we sould not exclude the possibility of his mother keeping her surname like Minerva.--Rodolphus (talk) 11:27, October 20, 2018 (UTC) Well - his surename is Lee, the surename of Barnaby is Lee, the norm is for wife and child to assume the surename of the husband/father upon marriage, and Barnaby isn't said to have a mdidle name, so I'd say the question pretty much answer itself. Maester Martin (talk) 13:31, October 20, 2018 (UTC) Edits Cecil is inept Oh, is he? I'm sorry, I was under the impression he was simply portrayed ''as inept by design of Jam City for our amusement. Putting aside your assessment of the character's abilities for a bit, do you disagree that werewolves are dark creatures? They're part of the DADA cirriculum, you cannot hunt werewolves without having one's continued survival attribruted to some sort of skill and/or knowledge in DADA, because that's where you learn about werewolves. I'm sorry, Ironyak1, but believe it or not, you ''can't ''get around it. Also - ''removing ''Magizoology? The minimum recquirement for anyone working in the Department for the Control of Magical Creatures would, ''necessarily, to have a clue on the subject of Magizoology/CMC, otherwise, how on Earth would you even qualify for the job? Why would anyone ever hire you? "Hooch as it sounds like pooch" And there is not even remotely a chance that he were trying to be humerous because he were working with a kid? The school had just been attacked by werewolves, lives endangered, and here this offical came from the Ministry to help out, and there is no chance, whatsoever, that this man were being, at least partially, whismical for the purpose of easing tension? Remember, this is not a year-specific event, so at their youngest, the MC was 11. How can you be so certain parts of this are not an adult who underestimate the intellect of a child by, if needlessly, acting as if he can't be taken quite seriously even if, as seen when he captured Greyback with a single spell, he is skilled, as a poorly chosen way of saying; "I know this is a scary situation, but hey, it's going to be all right, just you wait and see". Madam Hooch works on/is in the school grounds regularily, teaching flying, walking back and forth between the castle and the quidditch stadium, to ask her if she had seen or heard something that could be useful without she herself recognising that it might be related to the attack at the time, isn't that stupid. and invokes Lockhart ' Which proves absolutely nothing, since every Tom, Dick and Harry also would have done the same, regardless of how accomplished witches and wizards they were. Gilderoy Lockhart's books were real, believable heroic feats that he stole from others, not a bunch of claims so miraculous that no one ever took them seriously. He had ''everyone fooled, even his old teachers, who heard what he had supposedly done and, as Pottermore tells us, began asking themselves if they might have misjudged him. Dumbledore was quite possibly the only one who knew the truth. Beyond him, no one ''knew Lockhart was a charlatan. '- no reason to assume his self-reported talents or accomplishments are real. Okay, so - can you clarify this? If you are saying that there is "no reason to assume Gilderoy Lockhart's self-reported talents or accomplishments are real", then - yes, there were plenty of reasons. If he didn't sound like he knew what he was talking about, he would never have sold more than a few books before they were removed from the shelves because everyone knew what a fraud he was. Objectively speaking, nothing stops a highly talented and corageous wizard from having his popularity go to his head. Lockhart was dedicated to what he did, so there is no reason to think he never read several books on the magical creatures he supposedly defeated either before or after interviewing his victims and quoting either their thoughts on werewolves, vampires, ghouls, hags, trolls, etc, and either quoting them and using his alleged experiences to voice agreement with specific actual established experts on dark creatures within his own books to appear more credible. If, however, you are saying that there is "no reason to assume Cecil Lee's self-reported talents or accomplishments are real", then I'd say the burden of proof is on you. Can you demonstrate he had a motive to lie about having captured werewolves or successfully used the Homorphus Charm to turn werewolves back into humans temporarily in the past. Maester Martin (talk) 17:46, October 22, 2018 (UTC) :Once again, you want to argue over the plausibility of your speculation, which I am not going to indulge in. Please provide a direct reference that states high-proficiency in Magizoology or Defence Against the Dark Arts is a requirement for working in the Werewolf Capture Unit. Without this, it is nothing but presumption akin to saying only competent wizards would be hired to teach at Hogwarts. The direct evidence we are given is that he is anything but talented and skilled at his profession. --Ironyak1 (talk) 18:38, October 22, 2018 (UTC) No, I am requesting a reasonable explonation as to how you came to the conclusion that what I wrote was conjectural, cosidering my edits can be traced back to and is rooted in, canon information. You are very fond of using the word "speculation", but the way I see it, you have on accassion, at least, and inadvertently, I am sure, used it incorrectly. And from where I'm standing, you've failed to produce that. Proficency in Magizoology wouldn't necessarily be recquired to work in the Werewolf Capture Unit, specifically, but since that group is in the Department for the Control and Regulation on Magical Creatures, and they employ members of unit. The idea that any employee of that department, regardless of what division they're attached to, would be ignorant about Magizoology, since working with magical creatures is the whole purpose of the department, is absurd. And the idea that someone who hunts dark creatures for a living have no expertise on the subject that teaches you how to confront dark creatures, is nonsense. This is one of instances where it quite frankly is redundant for us to have to be be spoon-fed these things, because its ridiculously self-evident. It'd be like - I don't know, the word "potioneer" appearing for the first time in the first book, when a student in Harry's year tells him how he looks forward to Potions class, because his uncle is a Potioneer just as they are walking to a class with Snape, and us refraining from adding a description on the Potioneers because a definitive description is not provided, and for "all we know", maybe he sells doorknobs for a living. .What direct evidence are you referrig to? Was it when he said that most members of his unit ended up bitten, eaten, or lost, and he didn't fit into that category, when he admitted to have had several run-ins with Fenrir Grayback, the same werewolf who savaged Order member Bill Weasley, and lived to tell the tale, that he had successfully used the Homorphus Charm before, when he was cornered with his back to a wall, surrounded by two werewolves and later appearently uninjured by the time the player completed the duel and he stepped forward and captured Grayback with a single spell? Maester Martin (talk) 19:22, October 22, 2018 (UTC) :(To be fair, Jacob's sibling (who, depending on the player's level, could be a first year), also defeated Greyback with a single spell.) :Pretty much all we know about Cecil Lee (apart from his suspiciously self-effulgent assessment of his abilities) suggests he's a comically inept, if not just slow-witted, wizard. As Ironyak1 pointed out, we've seen incompetent wizards hired to teach at Hogwarts, and I wouldn't hold the Ministry to a particularly higher standard. :That said, as already pointed out, without any direct references, it's all very much conjecture. -- [[User:Seth Cooper| Seth Cooper ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 21:58, October 22, 2018 (UTC) I told you on your talk page that I was going to accept your answer whatever it was, but just ''to clarify... Do you think it is ''speculative for me to say that a man employed to hunt werewolves for a living have a certain degree of ability in Defence Against the Dark Arts, despite the fact that Defence Against the Dark Arts is the subject where people are introduced to the concept of werewolves in the first place, yes or no? Maester Martin (talk) 23:02, October 22, 2018 (UTC) :Yes. -- [[User:Seth Cooper| Seth Cooper ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 23:31, October 22, 2018 (UTC) And the same goes for Magizoology? It is speculative of me to say that someone employed by a department dedicated to the study and employed to deal with magical creatures, knows about magical creatures? Maester Martin (talk) 23:59, October 22, 2018 (UTC) :Yes. I would also challenge the notion that the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures is primarily dedicated to the study of magical creatures; at any rate, the Werewolf Capture Unit surely isn't. -- [[User:Seth Cooper| Seth Cooper ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 00:17, October 23, 2018 (UTC) I'd say it is ludicrous to think the Werewolf Capture Unit would never study werewolves, be it their behavior while transformed, their characteristics, where potential werewolves are most likely to frequent while transformed granted they don't curl up at home with the Wolfbane Potions to help them keep in control or chain themselves in the sewers, etc. Otherwise, how would they ever know how to approach the issue of capturing them? But that aside, if we ignore my poor choice of words for a sec, let me try it again: It is speculative of me to say that someone employed by a department dedicated to the regulation and control of magical creatures to know about magical creatures? Maester Martin (talk) 00:44, October 23, 2018 (UTC)